Richard Tyler
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Tok'ra PCsShould they be allowed?
Should the player characters be forced to retire or relinquish the symbiot?
OK so its dificult to say its nothing personal (and it is nothing personal) as there is currently only one PC who is Tok'ra'd, but it does seem to be disproportinately powerful with the possiblility of being grossly abused or at least render a lot of characters skills useless. Keep them as NPCs ?
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The Kibble
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hmm. I don't think the game is balanced and I think there should be a social implication to it.
I would like to see there being a consequence/porpos to any tokra PC and see how it goes and long term would not be surprised to see the tokra leave the host or the character be dpced/npced off.
What about other changes to pc's which may make them obscenely hard? Wearwolf bites? infection by nanites? spore heads? should the effects allways dissapear when 'cured' or should there be the potential to get some newer abilities?
could these be represented by feats?
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Dr Bob
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Rule 8 - Don’t take the piss
The problem resides in allowing one player who will obey the rule to be Tok’Ra. Then having to stop another player who you know won’t. Super powerful characters in any game always leads to problems. When one player has all the answers it lessens the other players feeling of achievement. It is always a problem about trust and precedent in any system. I think everyone has played in a system where one character is created with the REF’s permission and played well even though they are powerful. Then another character is created that’s has the same background ect and just runs roughshod over the game.
As far as Stargate goes it says a lot that the Tok’Ra were always distanced from the earth stargate program for exactly that reson they could produce all the answers.
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comedyofhate
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At some point a player character was going to get a Tokra stuck in their noggin. It was only a matter of time I reckon. I also have ideas about what they should and shouldn't get as benny and slap.
exceptional powerful pc's in the hands of the wrong person could be fubar, in the hand of the best larper it could also go fubar. This is now way a pop at you esther. 
Careful monitoring and good storyline writing by the plot writers that ensure that everybody gets to shine, no matter if you are playing an oober character or off the shelf new pc is what can make situations like this work. Over layering of multiple plot threats so no one character indeed one group of characters can solve everything is the way to go IMO.
Or you can keep stabbing kesler in the back of the neck till she goes eek! 
Seriously I may well be wrong, but I do not think there is a medium that will please everybody to every degree.
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Esther
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Just to say as the said player I dont' take it personally. it's a valid quetsion to ask.
I did offer to retire or NPC when I became a Tok'Ra and have done so again since. As i havent' been i'd like to play it out but I'm not assuming I will not get written out one way or another at some point, hell i was more than expecting to die Friday night. I'd rather it was for good plot reasons than cos people are worried about what might happen if other people were allowed to play one though.
I don't think me being one is an unbalancing as some may think for all sorts of reasons and it is easy not to have more if you don't want cos you need a willing Tok'Ra symbiote to do it. Plus i have done and intend to contine to discuss with the refs re power levels and how to tweek things so they work. As I am a PC with an NPC in my head the refs always have a fair amount of control should they want ti and even if that wasn't the case I would happy except that with extra perks comes a level of responsibilty and agreement not to break things and if anyone can't accept that they should not expect to get play anything un-usual.
I don't see I render other people's skills useless, Keser and Kesesh are very similar and most of what i can do now I could do before.. may be a bit better but that's about it. Knowledge wise actually i know very little I didn't know about as just Keser cos most of what i know is about the Tok'Ra and Keser already knew much of that. Plus I have always done my level best on a OOC principle to get others involved in my areas of expertise rather than hording the info and so forth.. I'd be willing to bet Dr Bob has more 'unique' info that I do at this point.
Yes my physical stats are better but that's not nessecaraly over powering.. I don't have a bunch of combat feats to go with it or anything and some of the PC's who have racked up bunches of combat feats could easly give me a run for my money. Plus lets face it I'm target number one at the moment.
Plus I expect things to be difficult for me. both politically, socially and other wise... i've had stuff thrown at me already,. believe me what happened in down time was much worse BECOUSE I was Tok'Ra than it would have been if I was still human and will have consequences probably bad ones. I've lost most of the authority and info i had before and I still have no idea either IC or OCC what my standing is on Earth or indeed with the Tok'Ra and just how deeply in the S*** I may be.
On a personal view point.. putting my own character aside I have no issue with different power levels in characters as long as they are approprate to the game, and the players are responsible in how they play and don't hog the limelight, which includes keeping in mind OOC that they get others, especally newer characters involved somehow even if IC they wouldn't..
We can assume the worst and assume people will power game etc or we can assume we are adults who all want everyone to enjoy themselves and therefore will not be completely selfish muppets. I know which view I intend to have of my fellow players.
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Freeman
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In the series, when Sam's dad got Tok Ra'd he went back to the Tok Ra and joined with them, only occasionally returning to the SGC to lend a hand now and again, and to Visit Sam.
I has assumed that once he had a host again, Keresh would want to return to the Tok'ra.
From a gaming perspective with the exception that Keser now has the ability to go oh "What would Keresh do?!" if she lost the symbiote she wouldn't be that far in advance of anyone else really.
There may be the odd memory that kicks in at appropriate moments (ref nudges here and there for plot reasons), but as I recall, while sam was briefly host to a Tokra (can't remember who) she didn't remember too much after the Tok'ra was gone, except in flashes here and there, and feelings now and again.
I also think that, as Keser and Keresh are largely seperate entities in the same head, Keresh is NPC / DPC material, but Keser is still a PC (who gets to be the plot team's play thing on occasion when Keresh nudges information to Keser)
It's not the Tokra's way to heavilly influence a group like the UKGC so I can't see as he'd take an active role unless it was really needed.
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The Kibble
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the thing about every PC in the game is the information they have depends on what the ref tells them.
Being Tokra does not give you any more knowledge as far as I can tell than other benefits other characters have gained such as learning certain skills quicker than other characters because of stuff which has happened in game.
I can see that if a person was given a tokra which had lots of knowledge and skills in areas they didn't have and could draw on them at will it could be more game breaking but it would be down to the ref's allowing it.
I hope we have confidence in the refs that they know what they are doing with the game.
If we look at Keser/Keresh why has she/it not returned to the Tok'ra because uk government has been holding her under arrest for 6 months now with no charge so has not allowed her to return and the tok'ra haven't come and got them.
How did she get tokra'd because she has spent lots of time working on getting to know them and being out liason to them so because of downtime actions was left with a symbiot to guard for a game.
All of these effects were decisons made by refs.
Also there other characters out there I can see are far more game breaking and flangey but it is lees obvious as it isn't one specific effect which has caused it.
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Moridin
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Its down to the snake in the head, if it belives it can do more with us than with other tokra then it should be allowed to stay. But it has to be more balanced. Carters dad ended up leaving the tokra for this reason and joining sg1 (all be it for 1 episode).
The main issue is trust from the refs that the pc will not hog all the plot and make things to easy to solve because of the knowlege it provides. If played right I see no reason that any pc should be asked to retire, maybe this should be done on a case by case study. At the end of the day being a tokra puts the pc in alot of danger, this kinda balances out the pros, as most gould who get their mits on one would kill them quite quickly.
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MajorMasters
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Tokra? Pah bring back ancient Sergei 
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Esther
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| Moridin wrote: | | At the end of the day being a tokra puts the pc in alot of danger, this kinda balances out the pros, as most gould who get their mits on one would kill them quite quickly. |
I agree with that except on one point .. it's not dieing this Tok'Ra is worried about..
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Moridin
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that would be awsome on so many levels!!!!!!!
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Symonds
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| Moridin wrote: | | that would be awsome on so many levels!!!!!!! |
What's the purpouse of this post ?
It contributes nothing to the discussion and has no real relevence to the forum even.
If you have a personal axe to grind with some one IC do it in the IC forums if its OOC please do it elsewhere, this seems to be one of a number of posts that you have made saying the same thing.
Give it a rest maybe ?
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sm0keyb
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Come on, lighten up! You could run a book on more or less any thread as to how long it'll be before someone makes a (usually witty) off topic comment. It's no big deal.
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MajorMasters
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Aye people need to relax
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Richard Tyler
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you are correct in the context of the one post. I suspect Symmons is refering to it in conjunction with all the other snide posts hes made
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Esther
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| Richard Tyler wrote: | | you are correct in the context of the one post. I suspect Symmons is refering to it in conjunction with all the other snide posts hes made |
To be fair and having been someone who reacted badly to some of this previous posts most haven't been meant the way they have been taken.
Email type communications bad thing - too easy to come over badly.
I know I've been guilty of forgetting that recently and not giving people enough benefit of the doubt about what and how they have posted so I agree lets all pull back and chill a bit.
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Moridin
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it was in relation to bringing back the assended russian, wow guys whats up with this?
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sm0keyb
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You've got to agree, Sergei in a diaphanous floaty ball of light would be really cool!
Ah, well, back to the topic.....
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Earthbinder
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Physrepping (without using bacofoil) Ascended sergi would be a nightmare, fun to think about though
On a side note to Tok'ra PCs what about Jaffa PC's surely the UKGC now has enough IC contacts with the Free Jaffa to allow some Jaffa PC's (even if they are tretonin dependant junkies)
what about Alien PCs (Tollan, Bedrosians, Gallarans or some of the other races introduced by the previous events)
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The Kibble
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I certainly think allowing Sem or other similar PC's in the future would add interest in the game.
No idea what we know abotu free jaffa at the moment or if they have the drug in our game world.
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Freeman
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we did have a chance to investigate free jaffa, but it never got followed up.
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Symonds
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Ive been looking into and working with the Free Jaffa for 2 downtimes now so I know a little.
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Freeman
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Oooh Shiney!
Perhaps you can update the wiki with some useful info?
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MajorMasters
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| The Kibble wrote: | I certainly think allowing Sem or other similar PC's in the future would add interest in the game.
NNo idea what we know abotu free jaffa at the moment or if they have the drug
in our game world. |
One or two non-humans would add flavour, any more than that I feel would be risky.
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Richard Tyler
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I think non human PCs should be allowed with one condition, they have fecking good kit. I know then you hold yourself up to people whinging they can't afford the kit and so your discriminating against them but if you wanna play an alien you should look the d's b's or not bother 
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Theo
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Hmmm, i think i can see a small need here for a few encounters of a diplomatic nature to be worked in to future events, something that hadn't occured to me before when scribbling other plot-ish ideas.
Good thoughts people.
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Earthbinder
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possibly (using the PCs as crew) allow people who want to possibly play alien PCs in future to "forshadow" them by DPC/NPCing them at earlier encounters.
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Esther
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| Earthbinder wrote: | | possibly (using the PCs as crew) allow people who want to possibly play alien PCs in future to "forshadow" them by DPC/NPCing them at earlier encounters. |
Yea then we can shot them dead
Isn't that how most teams deal with a diplomatic situation?
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Moridin
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aggresive negotiations.........
I think the point about having the kit to pull it off (and look good) and the writeing it into future events sounds great to me.
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Grace
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In general my feeling is that having one or two non humans on board would be an interesting thing.
I do feel there is a fine line between 'flavour' and 'too many'.
I also agree that anyone wanting to do it must be able to look the part and carry it off.
There are a lot of non-human races encountered so far. A player who is between characters (one died and not sure what to do next) could volunteer to play one for one or two events.
For example the cat people or someone from the Arenna Free Nations or the blue skinned people who made Kibble quite, ah, well, yes.. (forgive me for only naming those I crewed as but my memory stutters after a while otherwise). These don't need a lot of physrepping as it's more to do with the mindset.
Power levels could be controlled by imposed limits, for example 'yes you could normally jump that but it's your time of the year and you can't' or 'yes you could bend his mind like a fragile reed if only you had that technology you don't have right now'.
A very interesting case immediately to mind is Mr Fortescue and The Doctor, the two up and about Ethernauts we brought back from the last mission of the last event (although only Fortescue was crewed as The Doctor was Dr Bob in disguise).
Reasons to have them around could be fleeting 'take them home' or slightly more long term 'cultural attache'.
OOC there could be an incentive by the organiser to encourage people to occasionally volunteer to play Token Alien, maybe a £10 credit to the next event played.
On a permanent basis I think it's a bit soon to think about adding Team Alien to the roster. Face it, some of us are still suspicious about the Americans in our IC midst...
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Earthbinder
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Lets be honest. we'd trust the aliens more than the yanks.
at least they havent thrown any tea parties for us yet (Dammed colonials )
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Broz
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An alien race would be interesting to play (in large part for the aformentioned opportunity for proppage.)
Free Jaffa would be interesting, however would any work with us? Espechially after my last meeting with them involved the line "lets do the village, let's do the whole fucking village..."
How long before they were accidentally, repeatedly, friendly fired in the face during a night mission?
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The Kibble
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it depends what you mean by alien as well.
There are plenty of humans out there (in fact most of the races we meet are basically human) but not from earth.
Sem I believe are an example of this. these bring interesting characterisation in and maybe some unique knowledge and contacts but are not inherently any better.
But flavour not take over is important here.
Unless we end up by atlantis where it could be the choices become Earth, Sem or Crytos (a race name I have just made up) as now we are based off world with minimal contact from earth working with these 2 other cultures.
It would change the feel of the game but that may not be a bad thing tm but it would depend on the way the refs want the plot to go
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Fenric
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From my point of view - I think that in order for aliens to be special - that they shouldn't be player characters, or if they are player characters they should be limited to us having only one at a time - if SG1 was made up of Teal'C, Martouf, Jack O'Neil, Jonas and Vala - it would make Teal'C, Martouf, Jonas(yeah well) and Vala (hmmmm Claudia) much less special. Teal'C was good for 7 seasons since he was so special.
At the moment we have Keresh, now staying away from the discussion as to whether Keresh should be a player character - that's a different piece - we have Keresh and she/he/thing is special because it's the only alien we have (and is in the body of an established character)
If I'd created a new character and come on board as a Tok'ra - would I have been accepted - probably even less than Keresh - would me as Kincaid been willing to sacrifice new Tok'ra to save any of the UKGC members - say - Connor for example. Yup! Hello Gou'ald - you don't kill Connor over there - and I'll show you this tasty Tok'Ra.
Same with the Jaffa - it would be nice to have one - but as a "special guest star" for a day - do adventures with us for a while then go off and do something else. But not stay around. I think one alien at a time adds flavour - more than one becomes "well look at our collection of aliens"
I have a similar feeling about Americans. We have (i believe) three... I think we should only have one - now luckily Highway and Modeski are very very very different characters so to be honest most of the time I completely forgot Modeski was a American - and indeed he's not official US military since he's actually a mercenary - so Highway is still there and Highway is "special" because of that - and that's why I treated him badly by "forgetting" that I'd asked him to man a sniper post and then "forgetting" to relieve him once the problem was over - but that's Kincaid and the Yanks... but if we had another two Americans around - then again it's not "special" - it's a UK force - Highway and Modeski have reasons for being here - and great - but should we gain another two americans - probably not.
There is a rant also about the amount of officers in the group rather than "enlisted soldiers" but again that's off topic.
Erm.. rambling now...
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Moridin
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how about limiting it to 1 of each type and only 1 in each team? and you have to be found or find in the case of the tokra, at the refs descretion.
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Freeman
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I think things are fine just as they are.
Even onen 'special character' per team would be a little OTT imho.
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Esther
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| Moridin wrote: | | how about limiting it to 1 of each type and only 1 in each team? and you have to be found or find in the case of the tokra, at the refs descretion. |
I think one in each team is far to many, either aliens, americnas, russians, or anything else none UK based. That could potentially be 1/4 of the player base.. if you mean a team could never have more than one 'special' so if we had an american and an alien they can't be in the same team then yes not a bad idea.
I agree with JD exceptions to the rule should be just that exceptions to the rule not the norm. The vast majority of us should be British citizens and anyone who isn't should be there for a specific reason and expect to be less accepted.
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The Kibble
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we can't have 1 special character per team what we do with Baldwin we have Keser and The Kibble we all know kibble is "special" (or do we not mean it that way)
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dante73
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| Keser/Keresh wrote: | | I agree with JD exceptions to the rule should be just that exceptions to the rule not the norm. The vast majority of us should be British citizens and anyone who isn't should be there for a specific reason and expect to be less accepted. |
I think that's a really good point, but its another example of OOC and IC reasons potentially coming into conflict.
IC your rationale is spot on. There should be very few (if any) non-UK members of staff. However, OOC some of us (though probably just me) might find that we can get into a character more easily if we have the "hook" of superficial difference (like an accent*) for us to hang our role play on. Or that the PC's background adds something to the ongoing plot.
As for being less accepted, I think that is fair enough, until the PC has befriended/proven himself to the group. Its certainly been my exeprience and has lead to some very enjoyable IC interactions.
Personally I've always liked the idea of the programme being taken over by the UN. Nationality wouldn't be an issue then plus we'd get to wear those groovy national flag patches like in Atlantis .
* N.B. I didn't say it was either a good or convincing accent. I leave those to other people.
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Fenric
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Don't bring up Accents - My character is from Newcastle - and I have managed to hold a convincing Geordie Accent for 30 seconds before giving up
And NEITHER of us can talk about accents when we have South African - Mr. Nash
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The Kibble
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| dante73 wrote: | Personally I've always liked the idea of the programme being taken over by the UN. Nationality wouldn't be an issue then plus we'd get to wear those groovy national flag patches like in Atlantis .
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I must admit I have like the idea of it being a European Union program as that allows people to play characters who aren't British. Though tbh if people want to play accents play from countries who were part of the British Empire or duel nationality characters and make it clear that is what it is.
But to make it clear that is if I set the game up from the start. Changing this to a non British program now would be a major effect on the game.
TBH the non Americans bothers me less than more American's who are from the American gate program. But characters also need to fit into the rational of a British Program and to be fair no character so far doesn't feel right.
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Esther
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It occurs to me that if people find accents helpful to get into character what is wrong with doing a regional british accent. I've played characters with things like strong Welsh accents in the past. or how about a Gordiie, one of the scots accents etc etc we have lots of wonderful, distinctive accents in this country.
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Freeman
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The downside of accents is that if someone can't really hold the accent it becomes a little bit of a mockery (I know a few people who's attempts Welsh accents rapidly degenerate through scots and into pakistani...)
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Esther
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| Freeman wrote: | | The downside of accents is that if someone can't really hold the accent it becomes a little bit of a mockery (I know a few people who's attempts Welsh accents rapidly degenerate through scots and into pakistani...) |
If I try american it goes a similarly daft way.. there are plenty of accents out there.
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Richard Tyler
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| Freeman wrote: | | I know a few people who's attempts Welsh accents rapidly degenerate through scots and into pakistani |
Hell I'm Welsh born and bred .. my Welsh accent always sounds Indian.
Dave Little can get about 3 continents of drift into one russian accent.
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Symonds
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Dave's Russian has nothing on my french which rapidly heads to Centari prime everytime i have a beer
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Freeman
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Ditto on the French - and my 'American' comes off as 'hick' in a BAD way (just ask Path)
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Esther
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I used to play a Welsh character who often drifted to pakistani.. until i was drunk then it was a perfect lilting welsh accent that people thought was real and I couldn't lose.. problably comes from goign to school there for a while.. so all I need is to be drunk the entire time I play I'm fine
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