Minimum player age.

Olivia Chase · Minimum player age.

Do we have one?

Obviously it isn't suitable for children, and we do have players and crew in their teens. Would 16 be OK? I just want to check before inviting someone, that's all.

Dangermouse

Is there anything in the insurance policy?

Jess Parker

There is nothing in the policy to say that under 18s cannot play. However I had always been led to believe that it was an 18+ game due to its nature. There does not seem to be anything in writing to back this up that I have found, merely word of mouth. The UKARA license for buying the AEGs that are generally used as physreps is 18 minimum although not all characters are armed. With regards to insurance and liability in general, should anything happen on site that would be treated as a personal liability the person responsible would have to be 18 to be claimed against.

The matter of minimum player age does need clarifying, but it may be better to do this in a meeting as it would involve some changes to the current rules or constitution.

Thoughts please.

RHys Llewellyn

As a quick aside, various players have been under 18 when playing and Monstering already. So i assumed the opposite that it was ok. If this is an issue i will need to know ASAP.

Jess Parker

I would have no problem with 16 year olds attending. I would however be dubious about bringing my 14 year old along, especially if it was akin to the xmas horror game, which was fantastic for adults but would be a little much for younger viewers in my opinion.

I cannot comment for everyone else though.

RHys Llewellyn

Agreed, some of the people ive just booked though are 16 and over. As long as its ok?

sm0keyb

Jess Parker

I know in other systems that my kids have needed me present until they reach 16, then they need parental consent until they are 18, mainly because their actions and wellbeing are still the responsibility of the parent even though they are not attending. In airsoft they can go at 14 without me being present but I still have to sign a disclaimer/permission form.

It is a tricky area, and I would like to say that it depends on the maturity of the person in question, but then again that sets no precedent and could result in favouritism claims.

I think that perhaps a permission form for 16-17 yr olds is the best way to go, but this does need a meeting in order to be finalised. In the mean time perhaps we can take a 'suck it and see' approach seeing as we have 16 year olds signed up and ready to play, then have a meeting at the earliest convienent time.

The other point is the nature of the game. It is a military type setting so those with a great deal of youth on their side could reflect that with lower ranks or cadet status. This is moving away from the OC issues and towards the IC dynamics of the game however. These are just ideas though.

Rules are already in place for inappropriate behaviour and would apply to any player no matter what their age.

Broz

Assuming our egos can deal with our fat, old arses being outrun by the kids...

Freeman

I'm sure the game was originally 18+
I don't recall it coming down, or being announced as being reduced.

However, after a scan through the rules I couldn't find anything about age at all.

sm0keyb

Isobel Watts

16 + would be the way to go for me, with a permission form thingy.

Having a 16 year old myself, i believe that a CRB check is no longer necessary for people to work with them, indeed she had to have one done herself so she could continue her work with the Girl's Brigade.

At 16, they make their own decisions with regard to going to school, or moving on to college and work. They can have their own doctor's and pretty much parents become obsolete unless the law gets called in to deal with them for some reason.

That being said i think that having someone in loco parentis would be a good idea, just incase the worst should happen.

Edit: Just re-read the post above this and realised that it was under 16's being spoken about *slaps self* anyways still think 16+ is the way to go to avoid any problems

Jean-Pierre

As its a discussion I would firmly side with 18+

Its always appeared to be an adult system to me with some undeniably adult content in some scenerios, with a mix of booze and fags thrown in.

At the end of the day if an impressionable young adult does something stupid outside of the game and it gets connected to us (Much as heavy metal used to be the blame hound for teenage misdemenors) then you may see the end of the system.

Pemberton

Have to admit I agree with the above post by JP. Some scenarios do have adult themes and the player language/alcohol consumption isn't conducive to an under 18's environment.

As an addition to the above point about behaviour inside/outside events reflecting on the society I would also say it would be unfair to other players if they have to modify their behavior (i.e. no swearing, taboo discussions, alcohol, etc.) to accommodate children.

dante73

I know when I asked three years ago I was told Eloise had to be 18 before she could play, hence her not attending until the first Christmas event. But that was before we were a society.

I think the Exec need to make a ruling on it, and personally I'd agree with Marc that it should remain 18+. It should tie in with how old you need to be to be a member of the society as well, of course.

darren1

I've been following this thread with interest, and I'd just like to add my agreement with the above posts that the events should be 18+.
I wasn't aware we've have 16+ npcs in the past.
I also would like to see this to be incorporated into the society rules.

Olivia Chase

Salient question then. Are there any players who have paid to attend the next event under 18? How do we find out?

Jess Parker

This is where the rules fall down. As there is no clarification of age limits and no current permission slips for under 18s we have no record of who is over or under 18. The rules will need amending to this fact dependant on what is decided.

RHys Llewellyn

Ive got One Monster and One Player attending under 18 but over 16 and paid.

Jacqueline

I'm personally in favour of a slightly more flexible approach, 16+ with parent at the same event, 18+ for individual bookings.

RHys Llewellyn

Update
2 Players are 16+ but not 18 One im Bringing and Ruth ( I believe thats her, she a friend of a friend so dont know her personally but she has booked)

comedyofhate

The game from event one was supposed to be 18+. This was broken from event one. with at least one player, and numerous crew being under 18.

Under 18 players I have no problem with , under 16 's I do. If you are under 18, the big thing imo would be to create your IC rationale carefully. if you dont look 40, dont create a character who would realistically need to be 40 to be in their rank / position.

Tabitha Becker

I don't have strong feelings about the age, agree that it needs to be firmed up and made clear to people though (including the adult tone / themes if we go 16+) and due regard paid to any legal requirements.

sm0keyb

Pemberton

I think we need to resolve the legal side quickly, i.e. before the event. We're now aware of a risk and potential liability, to simply do nothing would be negligence on our part. To postpone any discussion to a later date would also be reckless too.

I take it we have some form of public liability insurance to cover personal injury, damage, etc. by/to society members at events. If the insurance won't cover acts by minors then the claim would have to go against the society without protection of insurance and that could be costly.

You should also look at the society's potential responsibility to look after minors; both where parents/guardians are and are not present at the event. We could have problems there too and may need to discharge liability through parental consent forms.

I have to say this isn't my area of legal expertise, but one claim could wipe out the society and potentially hit officers/members too.

darren1

Not to mention the free flow of alcohol on the Sunday night.

kiwi

on the point of insurance
I being a well built gentleman running either toward action or away would indeed need to worry what would happen if coming round the corner I run over somebody who is not covered our insurance (below 1 Cool

would this open me or whoever to being sued by there perants. as with this country now being sue happy
if this is a possibility i would suggest no under 18's, because I know I couldn't afford being sued

I realise that there are young people who would like to play, but for our and their protection

Moridin

Apart from legal issues if there are any....... It really boils down to maturity of the individual. I prefer 18+, there are drinking issues and a whole load of stories that we might have to watch our tongues about.

Isn't there a big legal thing with the guns anyway?

Jean-Pierre

With the new realistic firearms rule you have to be 18+ and meet the VCR Act rules to buy any airsoft gun that looks real. This does not apply to the bright green or orange ones.

Woody

As posted earlier there is nothing in the insurance that states a minimum age of 18 so on that side we should be covered. On the drinking side I am unclear but 18 is for licensing yes? No-one is intenting on selling booze next event are they? On the gun think right now I couldn't buy a realistic air soft gun as I am not in a club so am no different to a 16-17 year old

Just to be clear these are my thoughts not those of the committee.

Jade Dragon

Well as for the 16-18 thing as far as im concerned its down to whatever is legal...ie if your insurance covers it or not. Personally, on a maturity wise basis I see no reason why the average 16+ should be excluded. I do however agree that below that age is prob unsuitable.

HOWEVER...

What I want to know is WHY this is only being brought up one month before the next event when people have already sorted characters and payed.

The fact that there was a crew member who was not over 18 last event was not hidden by those he came with. I think its unfair that you have waited until you have recieved his money to bring this up because now not only have the persons involved gone out spent time and money on kit etc but now does not know if they can go at all and have to hold off there plans for june while you all decide.

Broz

Fairness has nothing to do with it, the fact is the question was raised entirly independantly and has now been brought to the attention of those people who we voted to handle it and I'm sure they will.

It was never addressed before because no one ever thought to. AFAIK it was never covered by the original system and since this is not a big fest there has never been any of the sorts of calls to address the point up until it occured to somone to check.

It's a problem, but to be completely honest now that it has been raised I for one am happy to let the commitee decide on it as and when they are able to.

From my perspective I am more interested in the continuation of the game as a whole and the continued legal safty of myself, my friends and my fellow players than having to be concerned about dealing with some idiot parents squealing "sue! sue!" should the worst happen.

As for the moderation of language/behavior/(legal)substance abuse in the presence of minors...well...sufficed to say if under 18's are allowed then they are just going to have to deal with it, not vice versa. Espechially it being likly that it will prove to be a slight improvement over that seen in the average secondary school classroom...

gliderrider

I agree with broz that the "Adult Content" is not much more(if at all) than you would find being bandied around by any 6th Formers, College Kids & YTS schemes etc.

However, The Legal Loops that the society would have to jump through to allow 16 & 17 year olds to attend would be a bit exessve, and a real legal problem if something went awry.

All Minors are subject to the Child Protection Act, so CRB Checking(Enhanced Disclosure is £60 each IIRC) for all the board & System Refs, A designated Child Protection Officer(Who has to be trianded), No in apropiate content, clearly segregated sleeping areas(Possably Segregated Ablutions, but not too sure nn that), and thats just off the top of my head.

There would also have to be a proper booking form asking all sorts of health questions, and with a parental consent slip.

Im not saying they shouldnt attend, just pointing out what I remember from my years as a youth leader.

As for those that have allready paid to attend, allow them in for this event, but make sure a ruling is clearly defined before booking opens for the next event. Possably with an Extra Ordinary General Meeting.

Jess Parker

The reason this was not brought up before was because many people were unaware that 16 year olds were attending. I certainly was not made aware of it and it had always been made clear to me that it was an 18+ system. Saying we are being unfair by dealing with something that has only just been made clear is hardly constructive. It should however be clear in the rules that there is a minimum age for the system and at this time it isnt.

The legalities are being looked at on this matter. No one should be panicking about CRB checks as we are not talking about under 16's. No one should be worrying about the insurance as the liability insurance does not exclude 16-17 year olds. However having someone in loco-parentis and having parental permission for 16-17 year olds is important, and so long as the person bringing them is willing to act as loco-parentis and is themselves 18+ there should be no issues.

The committee will be having a meeting this week to discuss this, but as a society we will need a discussion as a whole to finalise what everyone wants from the system. Please however be aware that it is no ones intention to exclude anybody who has paid at this time.

We will update everyone on friday regarding this matter.

gliderrider

Jess Parker

Right I have checked the statute and it appears that this may well be right. Although 16 and 17 year olds need to be CRB checked to continue working with minors in places such as the Army Cadets, they are still considered as minors unless they are employed.

This means that in order for the under 18s to play the committee, the refs and the organisers all need to get Enhanced Disclosure CRB checks costing on average £44 per person. It also means that the Citizens Advice Bureau are rubbish and if possible the statutes should be the first point of call Evil or Very Mad

So to recap, the insurance is fine, the loco-parentis is still required, but those of us with any responsibility to the society are gonna be £44ish worse off each.

I am taking this back to the committee, but in the mean time please could the rest of you let us know what your thoughts are on this.

Thanks.

gliderrider

Let them play at this event, and between now & booking opening for next event, get somthing definitaive set down in stone. I dont have a problem with 16&17 year olds, as long as they play in a safe, responsible mannor & in keeping with the game, and as far as that go's then the current disaplinery procedure is fine.

As for content, Cant see too much of a problem with toning it down a little bit (Ilegal drugs are the only issue I noticed at barnswood that isnt apropiate, and I personally wouldnt loose any sleep about that going). Most kids wouldnt be phased by, say babys heads in vats of green slime, as most of them are up all night playing video games & watching hellraiser.

As for kids getting around the VCRA Rif's are still available from corner shops, discount stores & market stalls. The only place they wont be able to get them from any more is bone fide airsoft & gun shops.

RHys Llewellyn

OK campers, ive gone out on a limb here. Just to give you some background I worked in the ID business for 2 years and currently work with schools so im pretty up on whats needed for a CRB check.

Information ive given them
That we are an renactment style organization (didnt give a name).
Outside camping and overnight stays.
16+ only nothing older.
Various Adults attending (not one).

I phoned a contact of mine in CSIW (Care Standard Insitute Wales) who advised me LEGALLY we DO NOT need a CRB check but best practice we should probally get one, also parental concent forms wouldnt go amiss. She put me in touch with with CRB on 08709090811 (anyone can ring this number) and spoke to a lovely girl called Vicky who says also we dont need one unless working or spending significant time alone with under 18 and vunerable children (which she says we not).

Anyone that wants to check this with me please give me a buzz on 07921768341

Jess Parker

Hehe, you and I have been doing the same thing.

I have the same information, that despite the law for minors only certain roles need to be CRB checked. Our type of group does not apply on the list.

I of course am looking for any remaining tripwires before giving us the complete all clear, but it looks like we should be ok. If I find anything of the contrary I will let everyone know.

Freeman

Jess Parker

It is not so much as a precident being set but more of a missed detail in the rules. This will be clarified by the end of the next event and definately set out clearly before the September event is open for bookings.

Tabitha Becker

I don't think we are setting a precedent as posts upthread seem to mention that 16+ have already played as well as crewed?

I also think there is an issue about parental responsibility if you go down the 16+ route - you might not let your 16+ kids see Hellraiser but perhaps others would, and I don't necessarily think that would be our judgement to make as long as the parents had been explicitly informed of the type of game and unless there are legal complications. Personally I'd much rather send my kid to a horror themed game (assuming I thought they'd cope with it) but where I thought they'd be physically safe and personally respected than vice-versa (you know what I mean).

I would be totally against moderating behaviour in any way though to make allowances - fully in agreement that it is and should remain an adult game.

ETA: If we go 16+ and if we do have to do CRB, individuals shouldn't have to sustain that cost - should come from the society and I'm cool with that.

Fenric

I believe Dan was 17 at his first game.

kiwi

I understand what poeple are saying that

1) Our insurance does not have a minimum age stated.
So my question is there a legal minimum age to claim insurance, that is say can a 4 year make any insurance claim or do they need to be 16, 18.

2) As for the airsoft weapons side see below an extraction from the vcr bill

Age limits for purchase etc. of air weapons

(1) The 1968 Act is amended as follows.

(2) For section 22(1) (acquisition and possession of firearms by minors)

substitute—

(1) It is an offence—

(a) for a person under the age of eighteen to purchase or hire an air
weapon or ammunition for an air weapon;
(b) for a person under the age of seventeen to purchase or hire a
firearm or ammunition of any other description.”

(3) In subsection (4) of that section, for “seventeen” substitute “eighteen”.

(4) For section 24(1) (supplying firearms to minors) substitute—

(1) It is an offence—

(a) to sell or let on hire an air weapon or ammunition for an air
weapon to a person under the age of eighteen;
(b) to sell or let on hire a firearm or ammunition of any other
description to a person under the age of seventeen.”

As for this event I would suggest that perental consent, with it clearly laid out what is involved and happens at the event should be done
We have all been teenagers and know that some information doesn't all ways get to the perants

unfortunatley I wont be there due to cost and work issues, but I hope that everybody who attends has a good time regardless of age

Jade Dragon

Pemberton

Looks like our main points to consider then are:
1) Insurance - which seems to be covered, and it is down to strict policy terms and conditions as to what is covered (yes, I work in assurance now)
2) VCR Act - which we look like we're complying with this as imitation firearms are either compliant or grandfathered in under the act and we aren't selling/hiring
3) CRB check - Not required according to CRB (They are Capita so I don't have great faith in their legal opinions)
4) Parental consent - This definitely needs to be covered satisfactorily as parents could bring an action against us on behalf of a minor
5) Player opinion - Do the membership want the game to be strict 18+

Some posts above have mentioned what happens in common practice, some of which is actually illegal. Ignore what some people permit commonly and those criminal offences uncommonly enforced. Focus on covering ourselves legally; if we do the legal minimum then our collcective asses are covered.

I know Jade Dragon feels people are being "messed about" but I didn't know there were under 18's at the last event and I didn't know under 18's had booked until this thread was started. This would seem the earliest juncture it could have been resolved without the gift of hindsight or some degree of omniscience.

I have every confidence that the committee is investigating this and that they will resolve it. I know I'm new but I have every interest in wanting a safe, fun and enjoyable game for years to come.

Jean-Pierre

I vote Pemberton for getting the word "omniscience" into his post.

The post pretty much was a good summary aswell Twisted Evil

Jess Parker

I am interested in your problem of our dealings with this problem being organised poorly. Please firstly hear what we have been doing and then let us know your suggestions Smile

This first came to light last Thursday, 5 days ago. Many of us had no idea that under 18's had attended, me included. I was always told that it was an 18 plus system.

The new committee came into their roles 6 weeks ago yesterday. So far everything that has been brought up has been dealt with as quickly as possible. This is being dealt with and as far as I know no one has said anything about paid players being refused.

Since this came to light I have been researching and examining all of the aspects involved. We have set up a committee meeting to discuss our findings and decide on the next move. We do not all work in the same building so cannot set this up on a same day basis, but have arranged it for the earliest convienent time.

The 18+ issue stems back to Sams days and I agree it is an oversight that should have been spotted earlier, but it wasn't and now that we know it is there we have jumped on it and are working to fix it one way or the other and to the agreement of the society as a whole. It is very easy to stand on the sidelines and say that the committee are at fault, but not as easy to offer a solution.

As far as I am aware no ones unit has been messed around. We did not know an under 18 had booked until Thursday last week and so could not pre-empt it. That player has not been excluded.

Please let us know how we, as a new committee of six weeks, could have handled this better as all positive criticsm is welcome, and all constructive ideas are very useful to us as we find our feet in our new roles.

Jean-Pierre

Please let us know how we, as a new committee of six weeks, could have handled this better as all positive criticsm is welcome, and all constructive ideas are very useful to us as we find our feet in our new roles.

I'll be honest I don't envy any of the committee for having to sort this out its a emotive and difficult issue.

To my mind you guys need to investigate if those under 18 can be legally incorporated into the system affordably.
I dont think you need to decide if they should attend or not thats down to the playerbase as a whole so a vote or poll should be the deciding factor. Assuming you guys find that attendance is plausable full stop.

sm0keyb

As far as I can tell from my saved copies of early booking forms, reference to an age limit dropped of the booking form in mid 2007. It has never appeared in the general rules to the best of my knowledge. This is a historical error that the present committee can't possibly be blamed for. I know that they are working very hard to resolve this & deserve our full support.

Tabitha Becker

Yes, while I know this must be frustrating for a 16+ player who has paid and got kit etc., and I absolutely sympathise because I'd be pissed off too, the fact is, as others have said, none of us knew it was an issue until now. Did you know it was an issue, Jade Dragon? Because if you didn't, you are in the same boat as the rest of us.

However once it has been brought to people's attention, if it turns out we may have been acting illegally then it has to be fixed no matter what the other circumstances.

I'd like to add my vote of confidence as Tonya seems to have got right on this and thought it through and done some research and figured out a plan, while letting us all know what is going on and soliciting our opinions, which I think is all she can do in the circumstances.

Jade Dragon

Im NOT trying to point fingers or blame anyone for anything. And I never said that this was anything that couldnt be resolved by the current committee after all thats what committee are there for to run things. I NEVER said it wasnt their decision or were they making bad calls.

But as Ive been told in the past there have been some under 18's there and I was just expressing an oppinion that I figured it could have been handled better before there was a problem keeping people waiting on decisions.

Im sorry if people think Im being offensive. Im not trying to be Im just giving an oppinion.

Tabitha Becker

No I don't think anyone thinks you are trying to be offensive, and it's totally fair to put your opinion Smile

I'm sure we all agree that ideally this would have been addressed before we are in the situation we are in now, I don't think anyone disagrees about that.

It's just I don't think any of us know what could have been done differently. The people who knew there were under-18s at games didn't think that it was an issue, and the people who might have thought it was an issue had no idea under-18s were at the games and in fact thought the rules said they couldn't be.

Ya dig? Smile

darren1

So after reading these 6 pages and since members have been asked for their opinions so here goes.

1. I've never really given any thought to an age minimum but if someone had asked me I probably would have made the assumption that the game was 18+.
2. Given point 1, I never realised that we've have under 18s playing (weather PC or NPC) at an event. In retrospect as I find that I didn't mind this as no problems arose.
3. I would be against anyone under 16 playing full stop. That is my ultimate cut off point both due to legalities (and other issues etc) which could affect the game and the fact that, well it's just too young.
4. I would prefer an 18+ game from September.
5. Although if it was agreed to let 16s (and over) play then I would accept that with no further comments but I would continue to act as if we are an 18+ game (i.e. I would treat anyone who was younger that 18 as if they where 18+, I wouldn't even ask people their age, in my eyes age is generally irrelevant at stargate anyway ).
6. I'm worried about the way this thread is going. The last few pages are getting rather heated. I say we give our opionions about what age the game should be at (so the exec meeting has an idea of the general feeling of the thoughts of the player base), accept that June will be a 16+ (as people have paid ) and look forward the exec ruling in a week or so.

Jacqueline

Well, it seems to me, we have a limited number of options at this point:

1- Nuclear option - un-book and refund all under 18s and prohibit any future under 18s.
2 - The exceptions option, no new under 18s allowed, currently playing under 18s exempted from the rule.
3 - My suggestion: No under 18s unless a parent or guardian of theirs is on site for the whole duration of the event, and a hard 16+ limit in any case.

Option 2 or 3 seem to be the most sensible at this point.
And yes, it does seem that this not the fault of the current and they definitely deserve our full support in making what cannot be an easy decision given all the factors they must consider.

Freeman

I think the best thing we can do at this stage is let the committee have their meeting and wait for the outcome.
I doubt very much that your option 1 is actually an option that anyone is considering, so let's just take a breather and the committee do its job? Smile

Colonel_moletov

well me and loftus started role playing when we were 16 1/2, though we were accompanied by Dave and Alex.

I believe that as long as they are over this age then it is unfair to turn them away, a high degree of of deciding whether or not they can join us should be based on matuarity also, though i guess that would signal a lot of the over 18's out at that point Razz

.

I would lie to add that this is just one members opinion.

Cheers
Sean

Tempest

sm0keyb

Jess Parker

kiwi

I'm insulted you dont take payment in apple pie, the really big apple pie like the ones from the last event?

as for the committee i say unto thee more apple pie

ps. we love the committee as we did vote you in!

Pie forever
vote pie now

Jess Parker

There is always an exception to the rule of cake, and that is apple pie Smile

Damnit, now I really want some apple pie!

bandit

mmmmmmmmmmm pie

Bill Savage

What about a minimum age of 30?

It would go a long way towards explaining all the SNCOs!

Colonel_moletov

"What about a minimum age of 30?"

This is not OAP's role play Razz

darren1

sm0keyb

kiwi

HHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMM 30 year old

apple snapps added to apple pie, with freash wipped cream

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

James Merryweather

I'm adamantly opposed to any sort of 'Maturity Test', it might prevent ME playing Smile

RHys Llewellyn

If it helps btw, I am CRB checked at the extended level for the people I am bringing.