comedyofhate
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Jammy / Lucky BastardHad some comments about lucky / jammy bastard, want to get a feel before I start thinking on it.
Poll is multiple choice? Oddly will there is a couple of tweaks I would like in the rules, I am fairly neutral on this, so your thoughts would be apprreciated.
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Olivia Chase
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My thoughts are not above, as they are a combination. Now I don't play combaty characters, but I do believe Jammy Bastard is bloody useful and has saved many a character (I actually had to use it myself *shock horror*).
However (and this is the controversial thought here) they can build up so much over time, and you can if you wish, have nine of them over an event, use 5 = lucky bastard, next event another 9, use five, another trade up etc that a character becomes sooo hard to take down because they have so many of them, which can be hard to judge when writing events and fair and balanced combats (which affects every system known to man).
There are two possible ways I can bring to the table for discussion (just as ideas to bounce from)
Firstly, use the feat to counter another feat or skill. So, Jammy Bastard will deflect sniper shots, strikes, critical hits etc, but not 'normal' damage. This will however make the combat rules more complex and make life more risky for the newbies on starting vitality.
Secondly, leave the feat exactly as it is, but cap them at at certain point (don't know what though) so you can have some Jammies and Lucky's, but either
a) Cannot have more than a certain amount at a time (ie five Jammies, you must use one, to take another one) and no more than 2 or three permanents, or
b) Irregardless of how many you have spent, you can only take a certain amount of temporaries over the event. Once they have gone, they have gone.
It is a tricky balance and I can see why comments are being made now. The trick is ensuring that combat is dangerous enough to challange the players, without them all ending up in the infirmary on -3 and below (and thus out the game) on the Friday night or Saturday morning! Folks pay to play an event, but the player must be in genuine fear for their character's life every now and then. A toughie.
Feats are heroic gifts, we should use them wisely.
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Doc Benton
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if we do this to one feat then it will end up being to them all.
i think is powere full yes but the same gos for other call for an exsampl
sniper shot put you on -4 (and there is nothing in place to stop some one stacking them up eather i bleave the 1st fight i hand with mr P he had at least 5 to 6???)in one hit no armour no viltatiy wich meens (if im not wroing) you can do nothing about one you have been hit other that start to die self stabiles can not be used nor can die hard the only one that can is deaths door that give you +3min death count.
i think if we change it so there is poss a cap will be hard to keep track of both from a ref point and a player point but my be restrick them to tak one a day insted of taking all 3 feat as jam b*.
just my thorts
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GefforyManning
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Another possibility is that jammy bastard uses 2 vitality when used.
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Freeman
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The main issue seems to be volume.
Some of us are 'multi-classed' in our characters and have a wide range of skills and, need a wider range of feats to supplement them. For those characters Jammy and Lucky are just fine as they are, as those characters generally only have 5 at most.
However, some of us are pure combat orientated, so are stocked up with the likes of Jammy / Lucky Critical hit etc to the exclusion of all else, which means those characters do stockpile them, so when the shit hits the fan they can spam out 15+ Lucky / Jammy in one combat. It's at that point that it seems a tad excessive, and maybe even broken.
So perhaps limiting the number of feats of any title that a character can have to, for the sake of argument, 5 would cut down significantly on that happening.
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Tempest
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I dont really like the idea of having a fatigue cost to using JB's or LB's. Unless perhaps JB's cost you vitality but the upgrade didnt (as its an upgrade).
Personally id like to see it stay as it is but if your looking for suggested changes Id perhaps limit your ability to use JB's based on how much armor your wearing so that wearing tons of armor encumbers you slightly and limits your ability to be diving out of the way. eg No to 1 piece of armor - no limit, 2 locations armored - max of 3 JB's per mission, 3 locations or more - max of 2 JB's.
I dont think it needs changing but just adding ideas to the pot 
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sm0keyb
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J or L Bs are essential. Even if you cocoon yourself all w/e (in which case, why did you come?) a run of bad luck sometime is inevitable. If you're a pure combat char you can keep taking JBs but if you want to develop your char in any other way you need a few luckies under your belt to free you up to take other feats. you can't go for any "heroics" without them.
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dante73
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| Freeman wrote: | | However, some of us are pure combat orientated, so are stocked up with the likes of Jammy / Lucky Critical hit etc to the exclusion of all else, which means those characters do stockpile them, so when the shit hits the fan they can spam out 15+ Lucky / Jammy in one combat. It's at that point that it seems a tad excessive, and maybe even broken. |
Sorry if I'm being dim, but surely the point of being multi-classed is that you spread your experience over a range of skills? If, however, someone has decided to play a pure combat character (and I hold my hand up to that one), then that's all we're good for. It seems fair that a single class character is better in their area of specialisation than someone who has chosen to be multi-classed. I mean if someone did nothing but psychology to the exclusion of all else, then you'd expect them to be better at it than someone who did a bit of psychology and a bit of combat?
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Broz
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With Leon here. If a character has totally focused on a skill area then they aren't over powered, just bloody good at one thing to the exclusion of all else.
Frankly with the increased lethality of the combat system a change in JB would strike me as nothing more than a desire to thin the pack. Espchially noticable in the case of A Personal Sense of Purpose, those JBs are needed to soak Through Damage so you'll be able to top off vitality and keep the hero thing going.
Having seen combats grind to a halt I think it's important that a chracter can (at a cost to their feats) step up, start kicking arse and lead from the front.
If you want to go and burn all of your feats on JB that's your decision (just hope you never need to jury rig a DHD or get infected with somthing.)
I'm not into the idea of mechanically imposing fatigue or armour restrictions on JB either.
Again with vitality, as it's atrittion rate is now much higher, there is no longer a percieved need to counter toughness creep (body builder and vitality brought at generation being nothing like as formidable as they once were.)
Armour itself is a hard vs soft skill issue. I would rather the players were limited by their props and personal OC and IC preferance on how much armour they took than by too many mechanical rules for encumberance.
Case in point I brought two suits to represent full Materials and the heavier Kinetic armour (arms, legs, thighs, shoulders, head, gorget, collar, deltoid, groin, feet.)
Because of the rain and humidity I choose to wear the bare minimum and accept having a third of the extra body. If I want the greater protection then I will have to bear the added discomfort (and having worn a suit of powered armour in a nightclub in July I know how that can feel.)
In character you may be a hard arsed marine, able to tab 40 miles with a 50 pound pack and thus be able to bear the added weight, the downsides already present as an OC factor, this was always what I took as implicit in the armour rules.
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Freeman
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Guys, I'm not saying that being focused in one area isn't going to make you bloody good at what you do. But I'm saying that having 15+ jammies and luckies might just be a little excessive?
Maybe it's me, maybe Freeman's too far spread out in his skills and feats, and 3 JB and a Lucky just isn't enough.
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Dangermouse
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To my mind, and I appreciate its a personal opinion, without a sense of risk then some of the fun goes out the window.
Having so many JBs and LBs that nothing can touch you makes it less fun. In addition it merely ups the ante for the refs to provide you with a challenge and that makes the risk to non-combat characters exceptionally high.
Having characters specialiase is fine and making some characters more vulnerable in combat than others is OK, but I think everyone needs to face some risk from day to day critters.
Having JBs and LBs is good, it is cinematic - however it could easily turn in to a farce if their isn`t some sort of balance.
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Fenric
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Having been a player and now a referee, I see both sides of the fence, and have both used the feats and had to ref people by it. Simon (Dangermouse)'s comments are the ones which are fairly close to my personal opinion on the matter.
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sm0keyb
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| Broz wrote: |
Having seen combats grind to a halt I think it's important that a chracter can (at a cost to their feats) step up, start kicking arse and lead from the front. |
This is a monster problem for anyone who isn't a hard arsed dedicated combat bunny. If someone with a sackful of of JBs or LBs goes roaring off into the fight like General Custer, anyone who tries to follow is likely to be in sheepdip if they are not bulletproof as well. More or less everybody likes to get into a combat at some point but nobody wants to suicide their character following someone with combat stats they can't match without ignoring all the other feats that enhance a well rounded character. JBs & LBs are vital to the cinematic & heroic nature of the game & actually there is nothing wrong with stockpiling them but rolling them out like smarties in a combat so you can storm the bad guys single handed without regard for other characters is bad gamesmanship.
| Broz wrote: | (just hope you never need to .......... get infected with somthing.)
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Why would you? 
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Fenric
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| sm0keyb wrote: |
JBs & LBs are vital to the cinematic & heroic nature of the game & actually there is nothing wrong with stockpiling them but rolling them out like smarties in a combat so you can storm the bad guys single handed without regard for other characters is bad gamesmanship.
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And yet that's exactly what happens - thus some people overstatting monsters - and it escalates into a combat death spiral
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Dangermouse
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One solution would be to limit the number of JB/LBs per day to represent combat experience etc.
E.g. Military Background character - max 5 per day
Non-military - max 2 per day
The above are only an example.
You can hold/build up as many as you like - the limit on use is a reflection of your training and general jamminess.
Then,perhaps, make the upgrade of JB not a free use, but to increase your cap by 1 (use 5JBs and you can then use 6JBs a day) etc
You get to keep the skill, combat focussed characters have the edge, their use is toned down a bit, but they can be used cinematically.
Just a thought and I`m sure there`s holes in this.
In terms of keeping track of them JDs database lets us know what skills we have and we write down what feats we take and use so I don`t think that side is going to be a big issue.
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Jean-Pierre
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| Fenric wrote: | | sm0keyb wrote: |
JBs & LBs are vital to the cinematic & heroic nature of the game & actually there is nothing wrong with stockpiling them but rolling them out like smarties in a combat so you can storm the bad guys single handed without regard for other characters is bad gamesmanship.
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And yet that's exactly what happens - thus some people overstatting monsters - and it escalates into a combat death spiral |
Even newbies can charge into heavy combat with the tanks as long as they remember the cover rules. Cover well and truely rocks but a lot of people forget the rules and get manged
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Duncan Waterhouse
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To my mind, JBs are a tradeoff. Non-coms may consider one a day in case of sudden attack, coms may do two out of three a day; more if it's one of those days/expected invasions etc. Even minmaxing scum with nine JBs on a 3 dayer use them and you've shivved yourself once you've hit 2 or 3 events where Natural Immunities and Torture Resistances from chargen have been burned.
LB's - this IMHO is the problem. You now got a free JB on each mission. So your typical JB use gets lessened and stockpiled for those bad days. You end up with two LBs per mission. And the jollity continues as some of us have 7 or 8 events under our belts - how many LBs is that now?
Non-coms have 7 x 3 = 21. 5+6+7 = Three LBs per mission!
Coms have 7 x 6 = 42. 5+6+7+8+9 = Five LBs per mission! (on the way to six) Be afraid.
Suggestion 1: LBs do one Vitality damage per use. You do get them per mission after all. You still get pagg'd by a Jaffa crossfire, be heroic, drop a Personal Sense of Purpose if it gets bad rather than taking Jammy Bs. I would also mandate roleplaying JBs and LBs (a minimum of one step away from the source of damage and looking alarmed (even mildly) while doing so); last event was sorely lacking in this IMHO.
Suggestion 2: Don't be shy of using other calls for encounters. Pain calls (use that Torture Resistance), Incapacitate and other happiness. And if someone starts calling Flame, just kill them on principle.
I praise cover being a civvie and as one who has to cocoon themselves at base usually someone brings an alien artifact that needs attention as Capt. Fitzgerald would say roit dis focking minit you see troops at work when Jaffas need juicing...
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dan
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Easy fix - only allow 1 LB and cap JB to 5.
As long as you match the lowered power level with the monsters, it's all good. It's even easy to convert the existing multiple LB's back into 5 JB and allow the player to exceed 5 until they use them up.
Yes, it will make combat more lethal and tense, cover more important and people much more afraid of combat - all of which is good stuff (IMNSHO).
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Bill Savage
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I think the real issue here is how lethal should the system be?
I have played in systems where 1 in 4 player fatalities over a mission was considered the norm. This resulted in players creating "hard" characters that could survive and a much more limited RP experience.
My experience is that the lower the lethality the more interesting non-com type characters there are.
A character death should be an event worth noting. If the fatalities rise out of the single figure percentages it is difficult to avoid becoming indifferent to character death.
A hardened combatant should be as difficult to take down (let alone kill) as it is for a highly experienced techie to fail at a problem.
In my opinion
Cheers
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