| Archive for Stargate LRP (SEF) Official Forum for Stargate LRP (SEF) |
| Woody |
Gun ClassificationsOK so I was asked a question the other day and didn't realy know the answer. Its about what groups certain phys reps fall into.From the rules Small - Pistol Medium - SMG/Carbine Large Sniper - Sniper Rifles Large Machine - Rifles and Light Machine Guns Heavy/Support - Rocket launchers and Machine Guns OK so pistols is easy anything with single shot capability for one hand Medium SMG is easy MP5/7 etc. THe blurry line is what is medium (Carbine) and what is a Large Machine (Rifle) I know I have used G36 as medium in the past as have others as well as M4's etc. But what about M16 and SA80's? Are they rifles or carbines? If Light Machine gun is M50 50 cal stuff then what is heavy? I have medium and so could crash course large but what sphyrep shouold I look at bringing to do that? Not a gun nut I quickly point out so keep answers simple |
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| sm0keyb |
As I understand it:
Small - pistol Medium - All assault rifles (M16, SA80, AK47, AUG etc/all smgs (MP5, MAC10, Skorpion etc/all carbines (M1, M4, basically compact assault rifles)/rifles would come in here too but there aren't many in the game. Heavy (Sniper) Any rifle accurised for long distance/supremely accurate shooting. (even the Dragunov is based on the AK47!) M14, Barratt light 50, L96 Heavy (machine) Any assault rifle modified for semi continuous firing (Heavy barrel, Supporting bipod/tripod, high capacity magazine, or dedicated machine gun (M249, Minimi Support Heavier machine guns (M60, .50 cal), mortars, rocket launchers, artillery EDIT Shotguns - Medium |
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| dante73 |
I'd agree with Nigel (and that's how I've always played/phys-rep'd it), but that then suggests that the rules are wrong, doesn't it? | ||||||
| Freeman |
I get the impression from the rules that they weren't written by a gun-nut, so are perhaps inaccurate.
I believe that Nige's and Leon's interpretations are in the spirit of how they were written. BAsically the rules as written omit Rifles, jumping from Carbines to Sniper Rifles. Assault Rifles, for the purposes of the rules of the game, as far as I can make out, are Medium Weapons (so come under the same category as Carbines). Any small 'pistol' sized weapon with full or burst auto capabilty is also classified as a medium weapon (Baretta 93, Calico etc). Whether this has changed since Sam's day I don't know). hth |
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| Fenric |
Kehoe is a gun nut, and he did the classifications 
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| comedyofhate |
ExplainationMy memory is hazy it may be the gin.the original idea about the guns was to keep things simple. Avoiding thousands of damage calls. They are not perfect. There are bits which never made sense to me, and I helped classify the guns originally. But sams rule was final and thus most of my suggestions go tthrown out for small, meium, big and bigger.... Sam had and probably has no clue about firearms, I tried to explain about calibre etc, but I used to get a confused look. As far as sam was concerned the bigger the gun the bigger the damage. Personally I blame White wolf and their abortional rules on gun damage. Pistols got lumped into a boiling pot, to keep things simple, which utterly ignores calibre and of course automatic pistols and pistol with repetitive fire. MEdium. Now I did try to argue the case for just having SMG's in this category but Sam also demanded that carbines such as the M4 got added. which makes no sense as most smg's tend to use pistol ammuntion while most carbines and assault rifles tend to use fairly standard ammuntion 5.56mm or 7.62m. Which funnily enough leads me on to LARGE MACHINE . In an ideal world everything from the M4 to the AK47 should be lumped into this category. IMO large Automatic should be a catch all for assault rifles carbines etc. Yes things get sticky when you have to decide where to chuck the MP7, but no rule system is perfect and it is not realistic to model a realistic damage system for each calibre of weapon while trying to run a heroic fast flowing combat game. So what about the light support squad weapons. IMO they should also be in this category. If necessary give them a new call or rules regarding the fact that a lot of them are belt fed, and thus you need to change clips less. Essentially if you get hit by M243 and an m16 there is no difference. If you get hit by an AK47 it fires a completely different round and thus would be differen't. Oh and of course the m16A4 is not fully automactic if I recall. The last model of M16 that was fully automatic I think was the M16A2. Confused? How about if I use the term automatic shotgun, yes they exist, how do we classify them? Heavy Machine guns . well that would be your 50 calibres, or your MG42 with it's insane rate of fire. Of course the problem you have their is to do you them the same damage call. Should they have the same damage call, is simplicity better than complexity? Why should an M60 get lumped in with large automatics and not heavy machine guns, yet it is a newer model of the MG42? (If you really need to ask why the M60 and the M60E are not on par with the MG42 you may wish to back out of remodelling the fireams rules.  )
to cut a long story short, it does really matter how you classify weapons, all I suggest is that you try to avoid 100% realism. Make compromises for play balance, remember new players may be able to only afford one or two phys rep guns at the start, and avoid turning shotguns into the be all and end all of combat. Oh and shotguns, were initially banned from the game if you may recall. Shotguns as most people know, do not knock down house, destroy tanks, and kill people by the dozen with a single shot. I am not sure about them getting the knockdown stuff but the 3 damage is about reasonable for game balance. Heavwy |
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| darren1 |
Shotguns currently do knockback and 3 damage. I think this simulates the "blast" quite well. I'm no gun bunny* (at all) but I do think the current (see Nigel's post) interpretation works well enough. Not sure what the ratio is to gun bunnies vs non gun bunnies. * I'm taking the meaning of gun bunny to mean those people who have a good knowlage of guns rather than those who only know about guns from movies. |
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| Woody |
So at the end of the day if I want to use a large weapon as either current or furture character I am going to need a bigger physrep than and M16 or SA80 | ||||||
| Freeman |
Let's not forget that the knockdown effect only occurs if the target is 10ft away or closer. |
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| darren1 |
I never knew that.  I've only been playing with knockback, 3 damage no matter the range.
The shotgun rules really need to be added to the rules document for the next version. It's all been word of mouth so far (the rules I've used is what Sam told me at event 4). |
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| Fenric |
Re: Explaination
Read "Combat" the White Wolf "Gun Book" - you'll cry tears of blood |
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| Fenric |
Bear in mind I watched Kehoe try to explain guns when the rules were being written - it was amusing to watch (for me at least). Poor guy aged a year in one conversation. | ||||||
| comedyofhate |
Why shotguns do knockback I have no idea and has nothing to do with me.
the concussive force of a twelve guage solid round, buckshot yadda, yadda is about the same as 7.62mm assault rifle round, and is laughable compared to a .303 round. Generally speaking most people in real life tend to recoil/ fall over when shot. People flying half a mile when shot by a shotgun is another hollywood fantasy like shooting out padlocks with pistol ammuntion. i forgot to rant about sniper rifles. I will save that for when I get back in. |
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| comedyofhate |
As a quick rule of thumb, when trying to work out what effects weapons should have, always remember the two swords rule.
Q. what does more damage a longsword or a broadsword? A. Neither, they do comparative damage. If something does comparative damage, then when designing a rules system get them do the same thing. just a though. 
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| Freeman |
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If a round (from any weapon) was going to cause knockback would not the firer also receive the same knockback? |
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| dante73 |
So we're all agreed that knockback for shotguns is a silly idea then?
Excellent. |
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| Fenric |
Doesn't one do D6+Strength Bonus and one do D8+Strength bonus ? |
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| comedyofhate |
All weapons do generally cause kickback, apart from that new snazzy pistol whose name I forget, which is built in with snazzy recoil compensators. Generally most people who are discharging a firearm are braced, or braced enough to except the recoil of the firearm.
Most people are not braced for a a high velocity piece of metal hitting them. I have to admit, the energy created in the kick back compared to the energy recieved by the impact of the projectile is something I know little about. Mostly because it involves science and physics, which I find relatively boring compared to internet porn and beer. There are probably internet website which look in to the science of how much people are knocked back by firearms. I will stick to the internet porn. For those interested in how guns work in an interesting and fun manner search for the website box of truth. It is two old guys who shoot the shit out stuff, and then report what happens when they do. It will also give you a good idea of how much difference in damage can depend on the type of gun, caliber of ammo, even the alarming differences the brand of ammo can have on damage. |
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| comedyofhate |
Yup, and thus complicated firearms rules work, and can be great in table top. The firearms rules in SG larp are essentially point and click magic rules for a larp system using guns as magic wands, in a system where every one is using point and click magic, and screaming out their own damage, simple rules where everyone has a rough idea what damage their wand is supposed to do. The damage calls make sense to whom are being shouted at are what you should be aiming for. Anything that complicates the flow of combat or puts potential new players off with the expense of having to buy multiple magic wands to shout numerous damage calls imo should be avoided. |
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| Fenric |
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/recoil.htm |
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| Fenric |
If you rub your magic wand, does it shoot bright white sparks ? |
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| comedyofhate |
It has a compulsion effect to make women shout jesus when hit, and for small members of the guinea pig family to be worried... |
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| kiwi |
couple of things
1) most weapons may or may not knock somebody down, alot depends on the round, how close the target is as well as a number of other variables. in the question of the shot gun effect it is quite fisable for a shot gun to knock somebody down , as yes it does have the same effective concussive force as 7.62 but unlike it the force is generally spread over a greater area as with something like 7.62 tends to pass straight through a fleahy target like a human. 2) As for forces being equal, you have to remeber that most firearms to day use the recoil to remove the empty shell case, load a new round and cock the weapon, also some weapons also have recoil dampners built in to them. how ever I do beleive we need to look at firearms again, mainly because there is a great difference between 7.62 and 5.56, example of this can be found during the vietnam war where american unit were finding the the 5.56 required a number fo round s on target to stopped the opposition, where as the Aussies Fns generally got the result of one hit one knock down. |
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| comedyofhate |
Before you start classifying ammo for different guns. Remember that when you say to the lay person or in fact average larper 7.62mm they will stare at you blankly.
In regards to shotguns, does that mean you are going to have differen't rules for the different types of load, the different guage? For assault rifle ammuntion are you going to take into ammuntion type? Mass produceed versus hand loaded? Muzzle length and it is effect on velocity? Rifled versus unrifled barrels? What about rate of fire? The cyclic rates of fire of automatic weapons vary a great deal.. Are you going to make people carry heavier phys reps to replicate the addtional way of carry the same amount of 7.62mm? My point is this, in larp, whatever you finally decide, keep it simple. A starting player needs to be able to understand what they need to purchase as a firearm prop without trawling through a morass of crap on the internet to find out what gun he needs, and what it does in game. A lot of players do not care about the difference in caliber between guns. Remeber SG is not military simulation. If it was, an npc or a player who gets hit by any bullet they fall over and shout ow a lot. They possible then shuffle off to whichever place they believe in next. The difference between assault rifle ammo in this conext is minimal, it is all fairly pretty lethal. Same with pistol ammo and shotgun ammo, any type of caliber of ammuntion. Most assasinations during the 20th century where carried out by the .22 pistol round. SG to my mind has always been cinematic in style. The good guys picks up his gun, sprays the target and it falls down. If you want heroic, have simple heroic larp rules. If you want complicated rules then expect combat to get bogged down. Anyway it is your game, this is probably going to be my last event. The new system refs get to make the final decision. I have had my say. |
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| Fenric |
I personally couldn't tell the difference between ammos, apart from "oh look that bullet is bigger than that one" | ||||||
| Olivia Chase |
It has to be kept simple for everyone. Not only for those who use the guns but those who have to react to being shot. Olivia only uses small weapons but may have a miriad of calls being put in her direction. I need to be able to react accurately and quickly and for that to happen the calls need to be simple.
Keep the current classifications which as far as I can see are small, medium, large, large - sniper, heavy, Calvin. What may be required is a shuffle about between classifications of the guns themselves, but that's it really. |
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| Broz |
Well for my twopenneth...
I've always played the rules as nigel stated (i suspect i may be the origin for his interpretation, ppl certainly seem to ask me about the gun rules alot...~looks at kit~ ah, that'll be why.) Kinda wanted to see a distinction between smgs and assault rifles. SMGs: 30 round clip, 1 damage for 1 round, 3 damage burst for 3 rounds Assault rifles: 30 round clip, 2 damage for 1 round, 10 calls of cover fire for the entire clip Based on my memory the shotgun, knock down at 10 feet thing is actually from Serenity (which for those not in the know uses a modified version of the same rules set.) I think it fits for the particular western style of that game, though i suspect that Knockdown should be kept for stuff with a reall punch (staff weapons, as seen in the canon.) And the seriously big shit like anti materiel rifles, and things that are f'instance about...six feet long, exotic, and a lot fucking heavier that i first thought it was going to be... That said I'm with Keogh, the system should be kept relaticly streamlined, simply because point and click guns conbat is chaotic as it is. |
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| kiwi |
I agree we do need to keep it simple
one way could b to move all 7.62 typ weapons up to large auto, that way no change in the rules on damage, just who can use them effectively, the reasoning behind that is if you have ever used a large bore weapon, you come to realise you need some skill to use properly, other wise you get buggered shoulder sindrome. another way could be to make it a specific skill as for
Janes keeps producing handy books[notice books not book] on ths stuff, but there is no way in hell anybody could keep all the information in there head. though saying that if a specific round was developed for a purpose ie shield breaker etc we would need a mechanisim for deciding the effect so what ever happens to be produced in the future we would have a constant |
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| Fenric |
You said Shieldbreaker - you know that means you must be punished Kiwi. | ||||||
| Woody |
I ask one simple question about what i can use as a physrep for a heavy weapon and look what happens. | ||||||
| Woody |
On amore serious note. If you move 7.62 to heavy then ity would mena most of the military types would need to spend 3 points of starting on gun skills, instead of the current 2. Is that fair? Doens't leave a lot for them to get specialist skills | ||||||
| dante73 |
Some of us did that anyway, I don't see the problem
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| comedyofhate |
As a suggestion which is a compromise suggestion that I hthought of while having a ciggie. Sweet, sweet nicotine…
I would suggest a slight rejigging of how guns are classified. To put it in warcrack terms, medium is getting a boost, and large is getting a slight nerf. Read everything I say, read it again and then rant.
Category Example SmallLight Pistol DAM 1CLIP 10 Small Heavy Pistol DAM 2 CLIP 6 Medium Sub-Machine Gun DAM1 / 3 CLIP 30 Special is a 3 round burst /Covering Fire Medium Assault Rifle DAM 2/6 CLIP 30 Special is a 3 round burst /Covering Fire Medium Assault Carbine DAM 2/6 CLIP 30 Special is a 3 round burst /Covering Fire Large Automatic LMGS* DAM 2 /6 CLIP 30 Special is a 3 round burst /Covering Fire /Spray Fire Large (Sniper) Sniper Rifles DAM 7 CLIP 5 *Light Machine guns Advantages • People, who carry hand cannons for pistols, get to do slightly more damage for a reduction in damage. • Assault rifles and Assault Carbines are treated differently from sub-machine guns. • Easy to identify what gun belongs in what category, well easier sort of. Disadvantages – • I can see a reduction in the amount of people who actually carry and use SMG’s. By SMG I mean sub-machine guns that tend to use a pistol or pistol like round. • There will be arguments as to what constitutes a heavy pistol. To my mind, it is anything that carrys a magnum round. • Large Automatics are nerfed slightly as they would now be based solely on squad weapons. While this tends to be the case, I understand that this may result in phys repping issues for some players and as such IMO they should be allowed some leeway in rejigging their points. Now this does not take into account the differences in assault rifle caliber. Seriously its not worth it IMO. But assuming people do not want to go for a complete rewrite it keeps the simplicity of the old rules and introduces no new calls. I would also possibly reconsider rejigging spray fire under these rules, so that it is no longer a call of desperation, and you can control the amount of spray fire calls like covering fire, as a possible boost for Large automatic. Finaly edit, sadly I cannot figure out how to put it ina table, it looks good in a table this idea. fluff. |
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| Freeman |
Where, in your suggestion, do you hold the Assault Rifle / Carbine with Drum / Box / C-Mag attached?
Are they still Medium, or does the extra Magazine capacity turn it into an LMG? (If not, are you prepared to accept that some people use these as support weapons and allow them a 100Mag instead of the standard 30Mag?) |
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| MajorMasters |
I think treating them as lmg's is appropriate as long as they have a suitable barrel and size. A g36 (not a g36c) with a box magazine and a heavy barrel is an MG36. There is a Steyr Aug LMG which is an adaption of the rifle also. Oh and a M16/AR15 variant called the Shrike. |
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| comedyofhate |
As long as it is a reasonable phys rep for an LMG all is good, if it is a reasonable phys rep for an assault rifle / carbine all is good. There will always be grey areas in trying to broadly classify firearms, and to be fair to everyone I dont think there will be a set of rules that makes everyone happy. | ||||||
| Broz |
Eep! just noticed this.
Suggest removing single shot from LMGs so that they aren't just big assault rifles. Also suggest the following covering fire changes. SMG = 5 x Calls for an entire mag. AR = 10 x Calls for an entire mag. LMG = 15 x Calls for an entire mag. Spray Fire. LMG = 5 x Calls for an entire mag Really the only change there is reducing the number of calls for SMGs. The bullets are smaller, but they get pissed out very fast, still causing damage but over a smaller area. |
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