comedyofhate
|
AMMOAmmunition
Do people think the current rules are working?
Does everybody understand that they need to carry the phys rep?
Is the current honour system, of handing over used clips a good one?
Are their any basis for the rumours that people are "topping up" with phys reps from OOC tents?
Your views are appreciated.
|
Fenric
|
Current rules : No - I think that ammo shouldn't be a "fixed" amount per mission, but should be variable dependant on mission type - thus since every mission is different there should be no rules for how much ammo you get per mission and it should be sorted out In Character.
Carry Phys Rep : Yes I think they all KNOW they should. The ambiguity occurs with "the magazine in the weapon" i.e. the magazine that comes with the gun itself, is that or is that not counted ?
Honour System : I think it IS a good one - heck it's that or "battleboarding"!!!! : I think that the majority of people are honest, it's a small minority who aren't
Topping Up : I disagree that people are deliberately cheating, but I think that ammo IC is well dealt with by David (Steve Banks) and he has a tight control on it during events - but yes I think people do keep the items between events (i'm looking at my tac vest which has two snipers in it right now) and overnight I may change ammo I'm carrying in my tent if I forget what I'm doing. (Kincaid hardly ever fires a gun so this has never really been an issue) - I think changing tape colour would solve the entire issue of topping up. But we need to make sure that there are enough Phys Reps.
|
Woody
|
To agrere with JD I think the current system works well. However if you change the gun rules at all then some sort of colour coding system to say what can be used in what.
As for topping up form tents I know at the weeeknd I carried all my ammo though the gate with me but once on planet I left my backpack with some spare clips in my tent. So yes I did refil from the ten but they were phys reps I brought with me so don't see it at a problem
If I am wrong fair enough
|
MajorMasters
|
Ammo Ammo Ammo
To be honest it gets a little predictable running low on ammo on day one, being unable to get issued anymore and then noticing some select players appear to have there own minature arms factory secreted in their tac vest.
At more that one event unless I go and find a ref to issue me my starting ammo I don't get it and when I do then try and get some "base supplies" its refused.
Personally I would rather see a surplus of ammo available but stricter monitoring on how much you are actually carrying off world.
|
Meyrick
|
| Quote: | | Current rules : No - I think that ammo shouldn't be a "fixed" amount per mission, but should be variable dependant on mission type |
I mentioned to David (Banksie) that a Threat Rating system might be useful. The level of expected threat is gauged and that scales up (or down) the ammo dished out for each weapon type.
The threat could be gauged not only for each mission, but for an event as a whole. For a combat heavy event (assuming it's not an ambush) you'd expect to be well stocked. For regimental dinners (for instance), you should have very little, but wandering into a known war zone should see everyone loaded down.
|
comedyofhate
|
The original mission allocation for ammuntion was based on Sam, not wanting the game to devolve into combat based missions all the time.
In my opinion if you want low or no combat missions as an event organiser, it is their job to write low or no combat missions. Pc's I have noticed rarely shoot first and ask questions later.
The idea of artificially limiting ammuntion for ooc game balance reasons
has led us to the situation where people do get twichy about how much ammo they have.
I have no problem with phys reps accidently being taken home. All that I ask is that they are returned at the start at the next event.
In regards to ammo. I feel that what we did at this event achieved a nice balance. If you want the ammo for the event, get the phys reps from the crew hut, as much as you want and as reasonable you can stuff into pouches on your body.
At the start of the event we get a tally Ic of how much everyone has on them. Thats it no OOC tent runs. No hooking clips out of your arse because you are running low. If you want anymore ammo go and see the IC armoury bod, he should have lots.
last event when I asked how much ammo people had Ic Some people took a handful of clips, some people loaded themselves down with over a dozen clips of different types of ammo. As long as you have the phys reps . Are not taking the piss. Then there is not issue. Roughly speaking a max of 10- 15 clips clips of 'various' are okay by me. Anymore and I will be having a rummage around and looking for bricks for your pouches.... If I think you are taking the piss with the amount of ammo you carrying I will nab clips back off you.
Banks being the armoury guru, filled a rucksack full of ammo, which weighed over thirty pounds. He had the spare ammo clips IC. He was the armourer. I had no issue with this. Benton and Harry Font had to large rucksacks which I intially thought had ammo in them, I nearly spat the dummy, before they told me it wasn't full of ammo clips. 
Obviously there may be times when IC ammo starts running short at events. If the base is cut off from Earth for instance. But generally in regards to clips take as many as you sensiblly need at the start of the event, leave enough for the armourer to dish out. Hand back used clips during the event, and any remaining clips at the end.
My thoughts
|
Freeman
|
| Woody wrote: | To agrere with JD I think the current system works well. However if you change the gun rules at all then some sort of colour coding system to say what can be used in what.
As for topping up form tents I know at the weeeknd I carried all my ammo though the gate with me but once on planet I left my backpack with some spare clips in my tent. So yes I did refil from the ten but they were phys reps I brought with me so don't see it at a problem
If I am wrong fair enough |
If the phys reps you carried through were issued from the armoury then I don't see that as a problem so long as you handed the phys reps back to armoury when the ammo was spent.
Didn't we used to be issued 2-3 medium and 2 pistol for offworld missions?
That's nothing, I'd like to see that upped to around 6 medium for a standard offworld mission - just in case you get ambushed at the gate by a squad of Jaffa who just happen to be training near the gate when you waltz through.
Other than that I think the rules work, everyone seems to carry phys reps, and everyone here's adult enough to play fair, so the only confusion comes with the phys reps themselves. People have a mag with their gun, and often have spare mags (if they airsoft they'll have a ton of spare mags I reckon), so whoever issues the ammo IC needs to note how many phys reps the player has got and factor than in when tallying the munitions.
(ie if bob the grunt has an SA80 with 5 mags, and the standard load out for a mission is 6 mags, the armourer issues 1 phys rep and tallys 6)
|
MajorMasters
|
How much would 15 clips oif medium actually weigh I wonder.
|
dante73
|
About 18lbs. Perfectly carriable IMO.
|
MajorMasters
|
| dante73 wrote: | | About 18lbs. Perfectly carriable IMO. |
Yeah would be. U would need more that just a tac vest to fit it all in.
Perhaps its the reloading rules we should think about. At the moment you are just assumed to reload as and when though I know some players make a point of shouting reloading and faffing about for a few seconds (which i much prefer) Might be nice to see people pulling clips from tac-vests and then eventually rucksacks as they munch through their ammo.
Would be ok as long as they ref had a nice big dump bag to pop dead clips in.
Thoughts?
|
Freeman
|
| MajorMasters wrote: | | dante73 wrote: | | About 18lbs. Perfectly carriable IMO. |
Yeah would be. U would need more that just a tac vest to fit it all in.
Perhaps its the reloading rules we should think about. At the moment you are just assumed to reload as and when though I know some players make a point of shouting reloading and faffing about for a few seconds (which i much prefer) Might be nice to see people pulling clips from tac-vests and then eventually rucksacks as they munch through their ammo.
Would be ok as long as they ref had a nice big dump bag to pop dead clips in.
Thoughts? |
Doesn't everyone do that already?
|
MajorMasters
|
| Freeman wrote: | | MajorMasters wrote: | | dante73 wrote: | | About 18lbs. Perfectly carriable IMO. |
Yeah would be. U would need more that just a tac vest to fit it all in.
Perhaps its the reloading rules we should think about. At the moment you are just assumed to reload as and when though I know some players make a point of shouting reloading and faffing about for a few seconds (which i much prefer) Might be nice to see people pulling clips from tac-vests and then eventually rucksacks as they munch through their ammo.
Would be ok as long as they ref had a nice big dump bag to pop dead clips in.
Thoughts? |
Doesn't everyone do that already? |
No after watching a few battles they don't. But then again the rules don't say they need to either
|
comedyofhate
|
In regatds to woody, storing clips in your ooc tent is not the issue. What you did is fine. Having an undeclared stash of OOC clips that are used to constantly top up your declared IC amount was what I was getting at. 
|
Woody
|
If I am stil fighting I tend to make a point of shouting reload and faffing. If the fight is over and I reload then I tend not to do it as I am more concerned about hading over dead clips to the refs.
Although I don't tend to fire a lot of ammo off so its not a huge issue for me.
|
MajorMasters
|
Reloading
In normal fire fights, where individual targets are being called, a character is assumed to be able to reload when necessary (however if you want to you may role-play changing your magazine & let your companions know if you are reloading).
There are 2 particular occasions when a reload MUST be called and role-played, after calling:
• Covering fire
• Spray fire
After the fire fight please hand your used magazine in to the Ref
|
Freeman
|
Does that need to be amended to require players to reload?
|
MajorMasters
|
| Freeman wrote: | | Does that need to be amended to require players to reload? |
What do people think. I think its nice for immersion, I can see it now gallant trooper X uses the last mag from his tac vest and dives to cover to pull a bunch more from his bergan.
But maybe thats just me
|
Tabitha Becker
|
I am all in agreement that role-playing the reload is good for the reasons you've said. But personally I'd rather see this encouraged through briefings to new players and mentoring from experienced players than actually written into the rules.
I'd argue that (i) it's best to minimise rules to the very essentials, (ii) new players who aren't airsofters etc. may have a bit of a time getting to grips with the combat rules and role-playing combat without getting the phear that they are breaking rules if they forget additional rp elements.
It would be good if excellent technical role-playing was seen as something to aspire to, like a status thing, rather than a set of rules to keep. JMO obvs.
|
comedyofhate
|
| Tabitha Becker wrote: |
It would be good if excellent technical role-playing was seen as something to aspire to, like a status thing, rather than a set of rules to keep. JMO obvs. |
I agree with polly.
|
MajorMasters
|
| comedyofhate wrote: | | Tabitha Becker wrote: |
It would be good if excellent technical role-playing was seen as something to aspire to, like a status thing, rather than a set of rules to keep. JMO obvs. |
I agree with polly. |
Cool nothing wrong with encouraging good roleplay
|
MajorMasters
|
| Tabitha Becker wrote: | I am all in agreement that role-playing the reload is good for the reasons you've said. But personally I'd rather see this encouraged through briefings to new players and mentoring from experienced players than actually written into the rules.
I'd argue that (i) it's best to minimise rules to the very essentials, (ii) new players who aren't airsofters etc. may have a bit of a time getting to grips with the combat rules and role-playing combat without getting the phear that they are breaking rules if they forget additional rp elements.
It would be good if excellent technical role-playing was seen as something to aspire to, like a status thing, rather than a set of rules to keep. JMO obvs. |
Though reading back it says you must reload after covering and spray fire. Perhaps we should remove that clause if we are going for simplicity
|
sm0keyb
|
There are issues around belted ammunition/drum & Cmags & loose powder/field reloadable ammunition.
If you have a 230 round belt or a 300 round drum mag, how do you represent it, 8 or 10 phys rep 30 round mags? Then you've got to carry the drum/ammo can & the physrep mags. It gets out of hand.
2.5 kilos of powder, a roll of lead & a tobacco tin of primers is enough for about 1000 rounds for my Colts/Sharps rifle. How are you going to represent that? A hundred 10 round magazines?
I think there's a case for some hi cap physreps. Stick a block labelled 230rds in an ammo can & remove it when the ammo is "spent" Even if the belt is still there, if the physrep isn't, it's empty.
There might still be a place for paper strips/lammies on drum/Cmags or peoples own magazines from their guns. Stick the strip to the mag, tear it off when spent. Any "naked" magazine is empty.
I actually don't think there's much of a problem with field reloadable weapons. They're rare & how ever much ammunition you've theoretically "got" they are more limited by rate of fire than ammunition supply. The Colts carry 6 rounds apiece & take about 20 seconds to reload by changing cylinders. Reloading chambers by chamber takes about two & a half minutes. It takes five or six seconds a shot for the Sharps.
|
Freeman
|
Eeesh, using rips is a sloppy way to keep track, not to mention getting messy
|
Fenric
|
and environmentally unfriendly.
|
Doc Benton
|
my thorts for this are in the weapons therad
lol
|
sm0keyb
|
| Freeman wrote: | | Eeesh, using rips is a sloppy way to keep track, not to mention getting messy |
Fair point, so is jD's but how else are you going to keep track of drum/Cmags? You can't stick anything inside, like you could with an ammo can & it just becomes downright clumsy to represent a big mag with ten or so 30rd physreps as well as the mag itself. It's also an invitation to pass off the ten physreps and the mag. There needs to be some way of representing the rounds that are in the magazines that come with the guns. With "stick" mags you can get away with directing players to only bring one mag that actually fits their gun and using ref supplied physreps for all others.
|
Chris L
|
For drum mags couldnt you just have a few larger physreps, for instance at the last event I'm sure I saw a box shapped magazine physrep.
So make some reasonably big box mag pysreps and say that all guns that use box mags carry a certain amount of bullets, thus you have a actual mag that fits your gun and the rest are box pyhsreps.
|
Olivia Chase
|
| Quote: | If you have a 230 round belt or a 300 round drum mag, how do you represent it, 8 or 10 phys rep 30 round mags? Then you've got to carry the drum/ammo can & the physrep mags. It gets out of hand.
|
A viewpoint from a completely different angle here. Medics don't have one bandage with 'ten' written on it. If we want to use ten bandages, that's what we have to carry. If the game is set on a base we can recycle them between missions, so a kit bag can contain 20 dressings that are 'used', then we 'go to stores' (ie re-wrap the bandages if the patient is well) and 'replenish the stock' but are actually using the same physreps to save on storage space overall. If we are offworld then we can't do that, once it's used, it's gone. Whether we get to re-use a physrep between missions depends, but in order to do our jobs we still have to carry the supplies in the first place. Also for everyone else, if you don't have it on you, it isn't there.
Having a different rule for ammo to me is unfair. If a player wishes to use weapons that use belts or ammo cans, then they must also choose to deal with the ammo that goes with them. Such is the power of choice. If you can work things out, get a backpack, or find a way to carry it then great, I salute you. Have a great time and I'll stay behind the sprayfire.
| Quote: | | 2.5 kilos of powder, a roll of lead & a tobacco tin of primers is enough for about 1000 rounds for my Colts/Sharps rifle. How are you going to represent that? A hundred 10 round magazines? |
That I'm afraid, as the player that has chosen to use that lovely piece of work, is for you to sort out with the refs. Will you really shoot that 1000 times in a weekend? I very much doubt it. Does it actually use magazines? Or are the bullets loaded seperately? I'm not an expert as you know, but you MUST carry enough ammo on your person to carry you through a mission at the very least, or if we are offworld, enough for the weekend.
|
sm0keyb
|
Sorry Debs, I haven't made this clear enough. The problem is that you finish up carrying twice the amount of "stuff" to represent a given quantity of ammo. If you've got an ammo can with a 230rd belt in it, fair enough, that's what you've got but you've also got to carry 230rds worth of wooden blocks, lammies, paper strips, whatever it is you hand in to the refs to show what you've used.
Likewise, with powder and ball. I brought primers & "black powder" (actually crushed charcoal) with me but still had to have wooden pistol mags to hand in to the refs.
If you've got anything that doesn't take a simple 'stick' magazine, you more or less double what you have to carry to represent the ammo.
|
Olivia Chase
|
My understanding was that the blocks represented normal ammo, but if you had your own physreps, as long as the refs were OK, and it counted towards the overall ammo count, you could use yours instead. When 'used' the ammo is handed to the refs who can put it in a safe place (as it is player property). That, to me is reasonable.
|
sm0keyb
|
That'd be ideal.
|
Broz
|
First things first.
On the subject of mag physreps, yes there are larger mags. I made about fifty Large (Machine Gun) out of polystyrene and gaffa tape. Originally these were ment to represent 100 rounds or 3 mags as they stood in the rules (they are actually the same size as the M249 100 round soft mags.)
There are also six Heavy Machinegun mags, initially done for the Minigun and are scaled off the 400 round 7.62 "cassettes" used in helicopters (and on Jesse Ventura's backpack...) They represent one "belt" of heavy ammo each (and fit perfectly into a british army commo back pack
TBH I don't believe CMags etc are very relevant, espechially since the ppl who have them already know what they are doing with them. Either they assit in representing a large machine gun or they are used for additional ammo storage. Personnally when I was using a CMag on my G36 I would faff after each volley of cover fire to represent either a stoppage or allowing the barrel to cool.
So far as special kit goes, well, it's special isn't it and that's for the individual player to sort with the refs.
|
darren1
|
| Quote: | | ...allowing the barrel to cool. |
LOL, just made me laugh.
|
sm0keyb
|
O.K. So is there any problem with using players own physreps, as long as they've been "brought on" appropriately (e.g. carried through the Stargate with the player, not conjured out of their tent) & they're handed to the refs once they're "empty"? Do we need to declare what we're carrying beforehand?
|
Fenric
|
Yes they would need to be declared, as ammo (and other things) at some events have been literally conjured out of nowhere
|
Harry Font
|
How about for an ammo change.. players take the current magazine out their weapon.. the hand with the mag has to touch the pouch they carry their ammo in .. and then they slot the old mag back in place.. take a liitle less than it would do in real life !!
I an several others called 'out' when changing mags, i actually ordered people to do that on one mission so that the others in the tea, could cover them. It added to the pace and excitement fo the combat and made sure people didnt get swamped when changing mags. For those on that underground mission did it add to the feel of the fight ?
we used to dump ammo where we fought, ie. when you use a mag you drop it on the main path. This was stooped an event ago as crew/refs didint wnat to ploice up the phys reps.. i think that after each action mags should be colllected by the ref so that players have an idea of what they have left.
There are a few players that constactly check ammo of the team, i know i do, and where possible re-distrubute ammo so that every one has a good load. During the last event we swapped belt ammo fo extra mags with the refs consents.. we can change mags for belt ammo as well if the need's occur. Having a limited amount but resuplied on a regular basis is the best odea. It means that you have to husband your resources and think about your actions. If we get rolled my Jaffa and wipe them.. then the second lot may well capture a player.. it add's an edge.
So i advicate role-play reloads, hand mags into refs, limited ammo with resuply (as in real life). It's about role-play and pushing a characters li,its, not about spray fire and i have a biiger gun than you...lol
|
Fenric
|
| Quote: | | So i advicate role-play reloads, hand mags into refs, limited ammo with resuply (as in real life). It's about role-play and pushing a characters li,its, not about spray fire and i have a biiger gun than you...lol |
All true
|
darren1
|
| Quote: | | I an several others called 'out' when changing mags, i actually ordered people to do that on one mission so that the others in the tea, could cover them. It added to the pace and excitement fo the combat and made sure people didnt get swamped when changing mags. For those on that underground mission did it add to the feel of the fight ? |
I was monstering on that one, and yes, It sounded great. I would advocate the new call "changing ammo" or some such similar call. Handy for refs as well.
|
|
|
